Miss Electra ([info]aberrantvirtue) wrote,
@ 2007-03-28 11:01:00
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Current mood: angry
Entry tags:[outrage]

Outrage, public and un-silent...
I want to be a woman in tech. I have dreams of getting a CS degree, doing something brilliant with it, and making my mark. I am satisfied by programming, even if I haven't done much of it.

So Kathy Sierra's post about the Cyber-bullying (and that term doesn't even BEGIN to cover what's happened here) she's undergone distresses me so amazingly much. [Warning: The post may contain pretty bad triggers...there's death threats and a pretty disturbing graphic.]

In a world where we're going for equity between the sexes, where men complain that they don't want to hold doors, what the fuck is this bullshit? This is not okay by any stretch of the imagination, and to imagine that becoming successful in a field which has traditionally been the domain of men will lead to threats, harrassment, and worse makes me sick.

I have no words.

So. Let's discuss how we can make this better.


(31 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]fools_and_irish
2007-03-28 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Can't see the post in question, but I've got a suggestion nonetheless:

Stop dating the b*****ds. Not just you, I mean, but every even half-intelligent woman out there. Call it a relationship embargo. If a person is abusive in your sight (or if a credible witness tells you that _they_ were present, perhaps), cut that person off socially.

Too many people make excuses for that kind of behavior. Too many people have learned to lacquer on a veneer of "coolness" or charm over comments meant to belittle, mock, frighten, or undermine other folks.

As soon as people consistently reject that as acceptable behavior, it will end. Within 2 weeks. Leaving the relatively-few uncontrollable-abusers swinging in the wind.

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. That's an amazing idea.

(And I've always loved Lysistrata.)

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[info]fools_and_irish
2007-03-28 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Welcome. It's hardly new, as you point out. David Brin took it to somewhat-disturbing extremes in "The Postman."

I'm just tired of a pop culture that rewards cruelty, from ANYone.

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read "The Postman." I probably should. I like Brin.

Yeah. I'm tired of cruelty being "cute", and insults being a sort of in-joke currency. Eventually it leads to misunderstanding at best, and at worst the sort of hazing and threats that create situations like this.

What happened to civility, courtesy, and manners?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]fools_and_irish
2007-03-28 07:20 pm UTC (link)
I was only so-so on it. Interesting ideas, poor development in my opinion.

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[info]dangerpudding
2007-03-31 04:47 pm UTC (link)
So, I hate to generalize more than this already is, but...

Trolls in these situations are often guys. Often geek guys. Often geek guys who have a hard time getting dates. Cause, y'know, they don't know how to relate to women.

'Splain to me how withholding dates from guys who *already don't get dates* is going to help the situation? Is it not going to just make them more bitter and angry to codify their lack of dates and remove all hope?

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[info]plymouth
2007-03-28 06:23 pm UTC (link)
I think there's a distinction to be made between success and publicity. One can be pretty goddamned successful without becoming a public figure. I don't think the harassment has much to do with her field and more to do with her public face. Women get harassed for public visibility in all kinds of fora. Which isn't to say that's OK or something that we don't need to change. I'm just saying - don't fear the success itself. Nobody ever harassed me just for being a girl in a male-dominated field, but then I have no interest in being a public figure for reasons having nothing to do with potential harassment. It's just not my bag, baby :)

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 07:19 pm UTC (link)
I know lots of people who *have* suffered harrassment for it though. Even if it's just the experiences that [info]clynne has. (I don't know if her latest tales are f-locked, but she gets a lot of "sweetheart, that wrench looks heavy. Want some help with it?" And that's unacceptable too...)

I don't fear success. I just want to combat this attitude.

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[info]fools_and_irish
2007-03-28 07:22 pm UTC (link)
"Hey, fella. That problem looks complicated. Do you need some help with it?"

If a guy persists in treating women as weak, appropriate response is to treat him as a neanderthal.

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[info]duckmonster
2007-03-29 01:28 am UTC (link)
No!

"Reverse" sexism (misandry instead of the arguably more common misogyny) will fix NOTHING. EVER.

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[info]fools_and_irish
2007-03-29 01:36 am UTC (link)
On the other hand, sarcasm and mockery seem the solution to *so many* problems.

It's only misandry if it's a true attitude towards men. In the proposed case, it was sarcasm and pointed commentary intended to draw attention to a pattern of insulting (hopefully unintentionally) behavior. And because it's NOT looking someone dead in the eye and saying, "You're being a male chauvenist pig, and I'd like for you to cut it out," it allows the male to possibly take the point without public loss of face. He can, in fact, play it off as a joke and correct his behavior without admitting the wrong.

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[info]plymouth
2007-03-28 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Thinking about it, there are some pretty specific reasons I think I'm not given crap at my male-dominated job but the things I did to achieve this aren't really gonna be useful to other people because they're inherent in me. I.E. I didn't set out to be the kind of person who fits in well in this sort of job - I started out already being that kind of person and ended up with the job largely BECAUSE of it. So telling someone "to fit in be like me in ways X, Y and Z" wouldn't really work - for them it wouldn't be being true to themselves.

Which isn't to say I could have done it 20-30 years ago - there really has been a lot of affirmative-action-sensitivity-training kind of stuff going on and while people laugh about it I think some of it sinks in. I cracks me up that we have "diversity" training that tells us "be nice to the women and minorities because we need more engineers and if we scare away all the women and minorities by being mean to them there just plain won't be enough old white guys left to fill all the jobs we have because not enough people are studying engineering these days". It's useful to be a scarce resource :)

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[info]dangerpudding
2007-03-31 04:35 pm UTC (link)
but she gets a lot of "sweetheart, that wrench looks heavy. Want some help with it?"

I don't know any women in tech who *don't* get that from time to time. I know that it certainly can be sexist and unacceptable, but I don't think that it is a majority of the times I see it. There is a deep cultural belief in a lot of the US that being 'kind' in that way to women, and especially younger women, is the way you do things. Probably 80% of the time this gets them appreciation and positive responses. That, I fear, is the problem - not someone who asks because it often gets them a positive response, but that they most often get one.

I say no. In most cases, where it isn't said with a sneer, I do so politely and with a grin "nope, thanks, got it - carry these around all day".

(Of course, being me, I probably say yes sometimes out of a belief that of course kindness is the way people relate to each other and yes, I could use a hand! I'd offer one to someone in my position!)

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[info]fungol
2007-03-28 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Recruit more women into the field. Even if it currently sucks.

You won't find equality in anything until you have parity.

Don't let little girls say "math is hard", it condemns them to oppression.

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 07:20 pm UTC (link)
How do we recruit women? (I know, irony of asking you this?)

More importantly, how do we encourage programming projects that *interest* women?

I think this was the topic of a discussion on slashdot, now that I think about it. But it's an interesting thing to think about...

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[info]fungol
2007-03-28 09:53 pm UTC (link)
Do you know what NOW's policy is on encouraging women to be engineers? Do they need one? Do they need it pushed higher on their list of priorities?

You don't neccessarily need to find a specific 'women in technology' non-profit, as much as taking the large groups working for equality (NOW was just an example) and making sure their outreach includes it (including scholarship programs, etc).

I believe that AAUW has done a bunch of studies about the gender/technology gap. I'd probably google for info about them.

and no, it really isn't ironic to ask me. :)

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 09:57 pm UTC (link)
Totally OT: I miss you. We should get together...

Back on topic:

I know there's a Women Engineers NP out there, I almost got a scholarship from them back when I was considering college.

And I meant more, I should have thought to bring this up with you sooner (re: irony). You're one of the people who pings in my head for both tech conversations and women conversations.

Weird question. What are you work demographics like vis a vis women in the workplace? (Just idle curiousity.)

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[info]fungol
2007-03-28 10:15 pm UTC (link)
We should totally hang out!

As for demographics here.... a third, maybe? but they're mostly non- coding/technical positions (support/finance/marketing/PMs). and our Developers are at least 1/3 by themself... so they're at parity if not outnumbering the males who aren't coders.

Those aren't quotable stats, of course, I'm just counting in my head.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]dangerpudding
2007-03-31 04:38 pm UTC (link)
We are. Pure and simple, we are. The issue isn't programming projects that interest women, not really.

May I recommend LinuxChix? I've been a member for many years, a read of some of the FAQ's and list archives might be interesting for insight.

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[info]karenbynight
2007-04-02 02:10 am UTC (link)
Achieving gender parity in a field can help, but IME it's neither necessary nor sufficient to stem gender discrimination in a field. Often, gender parity just leads to ghettoization of the field; see teaching, nursing, and, more recently, the disparity in both gender and pay (but not in work duties!) between those classed as "administrative assistants" and those classed as "secretaries" in the CSU system.

I realize that this sort of field-wide bias is not what [info]aberrantvirtue is speaking of, but I also don't think it's incredibly useful to trade one gender discrimination problem for an equally insidious and damaging one.

Additionally, "recruit more women" is a chicken-and-egg problem. My university, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, is an excellent place to learn in-the-trenches programming. At least, it's an excellent place for men to learn in-the-trenches programming. When I was a student there, which I admit was 10 years ago but I have no more recent figures, Cal Poly graduated half of the women that it recruited. No, they didn't flunk out; most of them left voluntarily due to harassment and more subtle gender bias. (Documented in a classmate's paper: Liu and Blanc, "On the Rentention of Female Computer Science Students". I'd link, but the paper appears to be only available to ACM members.) The message of the paper was pretty clear: computer science isn't likely to retain women until the bias and harrassment problems are under control, not, sadly, the other way around.

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[info]lonelocust
2007-03-28 07:29 pm UTC (link)
So, who is this Kathy Sierra, and what indicates that people randomly dissing her has anything to do with her being a woman in technology?

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 07:31 pm UTC (link)
She's a blogger and programmer, and is pretty high profile.

And a lot of the threats have more to do with her being high profile than with her being a programmer, but she wouldn't be high profile if she wasn't a programmer.

It's a recursive thing, I think.

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[info]lonelocust
2007-03-28 07:36 pm UTC (link)
I find reading her blog annoying. She seems self-centered and purposefully delicate of sensibilities. That's the sort of thing that people pick on. I fail to see that it has to do with her being a female programmer.

This is not to say that discrimination does not exist, or that women in tech don't get treated differently in the workplace, or that any of that is OK. I just don't see that people are threatening her for being a female programmer.

Seriously, not leaving your house because someone photoshopped your face with a pair of panties over it? What the fuck is that? If you don't want to be perceived as delicate, don't be delicate. That won't immediately clear up the problem, but it sure won't be counter-productive.

To me, conflating some overly-sensitive blog whiner being frightened by someone photoshopping her in an insulting manner (which I really just don't see as a legitimate threat) with women being unaccepted in tech fields just exacerbates the REAL problems of women in the workplace and especially the tech workplace.

She even lists some of the possible culprits as people with clearly female names. Some of that stuff may be threatening, but I see no clear indication that it's "someone doesn't like female programmers" rather than "someone doesn't like Kathy Sierra".

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[info]aberrantvirtue
2007-03-28 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Totally valid.

However, let's move off of her as the specific, and accept it as the incident that started this train of thought for me? (You're one of the people whose input on the larger issue I'd really like to see...)

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[info]lonelocust
2007-03-28 07:49 pm UTC (link)
My larger suggestion for being a woman in tech:

Do it. Blaze ahead. If people treat you like you're stupid, ignore them and do your job. If people are disrespectful to you, call them on it. Don't be meek. Don't let people treat you like their secretary when you aren't.

The last thing is something I have a big problem with at work. Something comes in that is not my job, I forward it on to the person whose job it is. It's REALLY COMMON for the coworkers I forward it to to send me an email back and say "Find out from the user what error they're getting when they do this and have them try this then let me know what they get then." I have said quite a number of times "I do not have time to be your secretary. I need you to followup with the users on items that you support, because I am busy doing followup with users on items that I support."

In my experience, the more of a standard corporate environment one is in, the more people tend to be socially conservative, and the more problems that one has with misogyny in the workplace. Working at a university or a laid-back tech support place, your skills are what people look at. Working at a big corporation with people who are wanting to climb the corporate ladder so they can afford their white picket fence and 2.5 children, you get a lot more gender bias expectations. (This is anectdotal evidence. I would be interested in hearing others' experience working in different environments in the same sort of tech jobs.)

I've also had more problems when I'm approximately as qualified and the only woman on a team. I feel a lot of sexism in my current job. I'm about as knowledgeable and qualified as the rest of the team. I've had another job where I was the only woman on the IT team but was clearly the most technically savvy and qualified. In that job, I never experienced anything that I perceived to be sexism.

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[info]plymouth
2007-03-28 08:58 pm UTC (link)
In my experience, the more of a standard corporate environment one is in, the more people tend to be socially conservative, and the more problems that one has with misogyny in the workplace.

Just a data point, but I get wayyyyy more crap for being a liberal than I do for being a girl, here at my big old defense contractor company surrounded by republicans :) I take it in stride though - nobody is actually really mean about it (though you can sometimes detect meanness unspoken beneath the surface).

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[info]duckmonster
2007-03-29 01:31 am UTC (link)
She even lists some of the possible culprits as people with clearly female names.

Woman can't be misogynistic?

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[info]chaoticset
2007-03-29 02:35 am UTC (link)
Of course not! *rolls her eyes*

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[info]lonelocust
2007-03-29 03:28 pm UTC (link)
If a female blogger is insulting and ridiculing another female blogger, I think it's reasonable to assume that the culprit is not doing it because she thinks women shouldn't be bloggin'.

Sure, it's possible that she hates all other women and thinks they shouldn't be programmers or shouldn't be blogging, but that requires a whole set of assumptions that I'm not willing to make when "she hates the specific person that she's attacking" is perfectly acceptable to explain the occurences.

I see no evidence to indicate this is an anti-woman attack rather than an anti-Kathy Sierra attack.

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[info]theadana
2007-03-29 09:21 pm UTC (link)
"someone photoshopped your face with a pair of panties over it"

Is THAT what that photo was? I could not figure out what was going on in that graphic, and my imagination was substituting a lot of weirder visual explanations. I was freaking myself out trying to get what was going on there.

I get that this is off topic and all, so here's my effort:

The problem is free speech vs. protecting people. The law is clear, but difficult to enforce in an age of anonymity. Most people are not threat-spewing mental cases to be afraid of, but the few that are out there are loud and shocking and get press about it (which, in most cases, encourages the behavior). You want to reduce this already low-level phenomena? Well, keep an eye on your friends, be assertive when someone says something out of line, and don't exhibit the behavior yourself.

You want to change the world to be more friendly, well, volunteer and work with kids. Adult views, habits, and misconceptions are difficult to change, whereas kids soak up the input of their adult role models like a sponge. Work especially with the children of people who you think are jerks. Try to prevent the transmission of the jerkitude.

Subvert the world by subverting the kids.

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[info]dangerpudding
2007-04-02 03:27 am UTC (link)
I am a woman in tech. More than that, I am a young, fat woman in tech who lacks a formal education in the subject. I love what I do. I do really nifty work, on things that really matter to me, and I kick ass at it. I have gotten this far based on being smart, stubborn, contrary and, honestly, a bit oblivious.

I am, in part, a system administrator because someone told me I couldn't do it. Outright told me that. Best way to get me to push harder to do something I already find interesting. I'm still a system administrator (or whatever it is that I am these days) because I love it with a deep passion.

That said, yes, these problems are real. I've dealt with some of them, come close to losing a job due to a terribly sexist boss, hit a co-worker who couldn't keep his hands to himself over the head with a rackmount switch. These problems are wrong and shouldn't be tolerated.

I freely admit that my current job has the lowest level of any of this I've dealt with yet. My previous job had very very little. I'm only mistaken for a secretary by vendors, these days, and only then by those a sysadmin wouldn't normally deal with in the ways I do (FedEx comes to mind). I have theories about why this is true, and would be happy to share those with you more directly, but mostly say this to point out that it is possible.

Does that mean I don't keep my awareness about me or that I don't do things to combat the gender inequalities in my field? Not at all. I submit papers to conferences, I attend meetings, I write proposals - I do things to make my competence visible to others. I think about this, I talk about this, I encourage and mentor and communicate with other women in the field. I have taken two women who were receptionists and trained them into technical positions.

Most of all, of course, I'm still here. I refuse to be scared off. I will not be spoken over, ignored, belittled, or have my work diminished due to my gender.

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